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thebugger
modified 9 years ago

Ground Loops 101

9
14
352
06:12:13
Well, as you know everything has an electrical resistance (except superconductors). Also you know that an ideal ground will sink in infinite amount of current without changing its relative potential. In reality due to resistance of the household wiring, the imperfection of the ground itself and its conductivity, the ground is actually not exactly at 0V potential. This means that a small amount of common current will flow to every device in the same grid. The 250mOhm resistor represents the combined resistance of all the wires in a single household, although the resistance distribution is much more complex, adding up for every appliance. Now let's place a 220V/100W light bulb, as you can find in any household in the outlet. You'll see that (at the blue line), due to the limited voltage drop to ground a small voltage developes on the ground rail. Here it is 168mV but that value will widely vary from load to load. The worst ground loop voltage is from a motor. It's very harmonic rich and contains all sorts of noise. Now if you are using the outlet for just light bulbs and such, the ground loop, shouldn't pose any problems, nor an electrocution risk. But if you add a more complex, noise sensitive circuit like an amplifier (circuit on the right), a sufficient hum will develop at the output (green line). Even worse if the hum finds its way to the input it may get amplified severalfold, leading to oscillations. And that is pretty undesirable. You see ground loops in analog TV, when horizontal sweeping lines develop on the screen. The yellow line represents perfect ground without any ground loops. The only sure way of eliminating ground loops completely is to add an isolation transformer, to separate the mains ground from the circuit ground. The ,,circuit ground'' is also called chassis ground or signal ground and it's usually disconnected from earth ground. So to sum things up, ground loops lead to small amounts of current flowing through the common conductor, which leads to many undesirable effects. To negate it an isolation transformer is required. An isolation transformer has one more purpose. To enable you to choose a fixed point for your ground, that is independent of the ground point of the mains. If you have any further questions refer to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity) or ask away. I'll be happy to further disambiguate things
published 9 years ago
hurz
9 years ago
As usual only partly correct, connect a loudspeaker to your amp and see there is no problem! To avoid groundloops, the resistance have to be low of all wirings! Everything else are only bad workaround and dont fix the root cause of problem! 250mOhm is much much to high!! And if you have 250mOhm, another rule is, to connect all devices at this point (your amp, generator and all other devices) so they all swing on same (bad) potential! As you can see with your amp and the loudspeaker i have placed (blue) NO interferences at all!!!! http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6062239358910464
hurz
9 years ago
Thats the reason why you should never use/mix an extension cord from a neigbour table in a Lab! Only outlets from your table! In your example the generator from neigbour and amp connected at your table is a bad idea! But both connected to your tabel is no problem at all!!!
thebugger
9 years ago
First of all, as I've already written, the summed up resistance of all the wires and ground paths is a much more complex number, with some wires in parallel with others, some in series etc. The 250mOhm resistor represents the combined resistance of the whole network and it's over simplified for the sakes of the tutorial. Second, the potential difference may always be the same at the output, but as I said the distributed resistance is much more complex, and the real circuit will surely not look like this in the end. You mean to tell me that ground loops aren't a huge source of noise and interference in both analog and digital circuits? I personally have had great troubles in eliminating ground loops in some of my early amplifier experiment. There are whole ground connectiom topologies dedicated to solving this problem.
hurz
9 years ago
Sure i believe you had big trouble with groundloops, cuz you haven't understand them.
hurz
9 years ago
But giving tutorials?
thebugger
9 years ago
Yes at the time i didn't understand them, but since i ruled out filtering noise, i had to learn about the other major hum source. The solution was to separate the earth ground from the chassis ground.
faceblast
9 years ago
why are you connecting your stuff to the ground anyway? it's there for safety, not for power
thebugger
9 years ago
Well everything is grounded one way or another. It may not be physically connected to the earth, but it can also mean a common mode rail (0V). Ground is defined as a common rail, which can theoretically sink in all current without changing its potential. In reality that's not always true.
thebugger
9 years ago
Ground is a much misunderstood concept. Usually ground may not be at 0V, it can be chosen to be any point, as long as there's a potential difference between the two points, that suit your needs. For instance if you have a power supply at 10V and a ground point at 5V the potential difference that will be, between these two points is 5V, but raising the ground above 0V makes it harder for it to sink in the extra current, increasing the ground loops problem.
faceblast
9 years ago
dirt loops
thebugger
9 years ago
In a matter of speaking, yes, although they occur in the wiring. Imperfect earth conductivity is also a factor.
hurz
9 years ago
Buggzy you tried to construct a scenario of ground loops and you FAILED as i proved with my first post circuit. Actually your construction gives a workaround in case you have a problem with ground loops. But you stubborn idiot don't see that. This gives me the prove you do not get the basic problem! Try to understand and construct a scenario which demonstrates the PROBLEM correct.
thebugger
9 years ago
I fixed it. I found the workaround you were talking about. Now it represents a ground loop.
milindjadhav
8 years ago
Nice this one

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