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eekee
modified 7 years ago

Ringing or Not

11
27
340
03:29:53
I think I found an EC bug. (Requesting comments.) The capacitor, BJT, and two resistors make up a monostable multivibrator. It is triggered by a falling edge. Why then does it also produce a pulse on the rising edge? It doesn't. It produces a pulse AFTER the rising edge due to ringing -- the current through the capacitor goes past zero. This is not necessarily a bug, it could be right for this circuit. Switching the input of the comparator to the logic source should make no difference. Instead, the ringing is suddenly absent. Why? If, IF, there is any simulateable difference in the output of the comparator, it should be sharper and thus MORE likely to produce ringing. Slow the simulation down to 10μs/s for more accuracy, and the ringing remains. (It may not look like it because the ringing is -590μA while the positive spike is nearly 60mA, but you can see the blue line dip very slightly.) Switch to the logic source at 10μs/s and there's more current in the falling edge; 1mA instead of 800μA. There is again no ringing, the maximum current again approaching 60mA but the minimum is only -418nA. ARGH! adjust the logic source to 25% delay, (to match the cycle of the triangle wave,) and the ringing goes away WHEN THE INPUT COMES FROM THE TRIANGLE WAVE! This is definitely a bug, unless I stumbled on an inherent problem with transient simulation.
published 7 years ago
jason9
7 years ago
Definitely a bug. With a better simulator, even one identical to EC, just with better programming, this wouldn’t happen. I think what happens is that on the rising edge, the capacitor charges very fast as current flows from the op-amp output through the capacitor into the transistor’s base. The only problem is that since this occurs in one simulator frame, it fails to compute it properly and overcharges the capacitor causing the voltage at the base of the transistor to drop causing the output to go high.
jason9
7 years ago
Reducing the gain of the op-amp from 1MV/V to 10V/V makes the rising/falling take more than one simulator frame causing it to compute correctly. Even 100V/V should work if you increase the simulation speed to 33.3uS/S. Should you increase the simulation speed to 10uS/S 333V/V should work too. At the maximum simulation speed of 8.33uS, 400V/V should work.
jason9
7 years ago
Hmm, at 8.33uS/S, it still happens even at 100V/V, and at 100V/V you can clearly see that the short spike occurs at the end of the rising edge, almost as if the capacitor has some inductance in it. However, this is pseudo inductance created by errors caused by subsampling.
jason9
7 years ago
I haven’t done any testing with the logic train, only the triangle wave was used. The fact that there is a difference between the two especially since the 1MV/V gain should nullify any difference is quite strange.
jason9
7 years ago
Wait, that last paragraph there in your description. All I can say is, “wow, this is definitely buggy”.
eekee
7 years ago
Thanks jason! It's a shame it's a bug, but better to find out now than after basing a larger circuit on it. It goes away with a 500pF capacitor, at 333us/s, so that's something.
eekee
7 years ago
BTW, it's 's' for seconds. 'S' is Sieverts, which i think is radiation. :)
hurz
7 years ago
S is in electronic for Siemens and is the conductance 1/R
hurz
7 years ago
Why do you call it ringing? Thats not the issue 😋 Anyway, interesting effect as we have many more within everycircuit like the ghost transmitter from regtangular sources, @nikisali published some nice examples. But for this circuit here i recommand to use a cap together with a resistor, cuz caps are perfect in EC and transistors do have parasitic caps, driven from a perfect OpAmp output cuz infinite current for the very first moment and chaotic results. http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6008269855522816
jason9
7 years ago
Oh, I was unaware that “S” was not for seconds but rather Siemens, the reciprocal of resistance, and that seconds is always lowercase “s” in the case of electronics. Also, yes, Sieverts is a measure of radiation dosage, or at least some radiation measure.
eekee
7 years ago
"Overshoot" would be a better name. The resister works fine, thank you. Now I have to see these ghost transmitters! :)
eekee
7 years ago
@nikisali appears to have gone. The only reference I can find to him is my Fast Clocks, where he's credited for the counter/CMOS clock.
hurz
7 years ago
Sorry, its @nikisalli http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6337513033039872
eekee
7 years ago
Thanks hurz, I tried every spelling combination but that.
eekee
7 years ago
I just rediscovered that Siemens are also known as Mhos -- "Ohms" backwards. Valve amplification was specified in many ways, one of the common ones was μMhos. This was a measurement of the "amplification factor," a term which further amplified the confusion by having the symbol "μ". :)
nikisalli
7 years ago
I'm here lol
eekee
7 years ago
hallo niki! lol
eekee
7 years ago
oh i see how it works :)
eekee
7 years ago
I think I know why I called it ringing. Some people call all overshoot 'ringing', & I picked up the habit.
jason9
7 years ago
@nikisalli, regarding your profile, is “analogic” a word?
eekee
7 years ago
It's a brand, I believe.
jason9
7 years ago
Oh.
rich11292000
7 years ago
Analogic - Of or pertaining to analogy.
nikisalli
7 years ago
I meant analog stuff lol
nikisalli
7 years ago
I often make that mistake because in italian "analog" is spelled "analogico" and so it is more natural for me to write analogic instead of analog :)
jason9
7 years ago
I see.
zorgrian
7 years ago
también, los mismos problemas de género ocurren en castellano

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