EveryCircuit
Contact
Reviews
Home
2ctiby
modified 6 years ago

RMS 2 of 2

7
16
297
03:49:17
This is a two part article to describe rms ... it is particularly aimed at basic PWM calculation here. Part 2: Find (∑ v)/n  when  v =  -1,-2,-3,-4,-5,1,2,3,4,5   If that looks difficult to understand, then see part 1 here: http://everycircuit.com/circuit/4722989450133504 You should find here that ∑ v = 0 We have hit a common problem: The minus values have offset the +ve values. To get round this problem we can: 1: Square every value, then find the sum .... ie: ∑ v² 2: Then we can find the mean ....  ie: (∑ v²)/n 3: Then we can take the square root of that result, to undo the squaring:  √ [(∑ v²)/n] The reason we squared/unsquared, was (amongst other things) to get rid of minus signs. eg:   -3² = +9   etc. Let's do that for the original problem above. ie: Find √ [(∑ v²)/n]  when  v =  -1,-2,-3,-4,-5,1,2,3,4,5   1:  1,4,9,16,25, 1,4,9,16,25   ie: ∑ v² = 110 ..... the sum of v squareds is 110 2:  110/10    ie:  (∑ v²)/n   = 11 ..... the mean of the v squareds is 11 3:  √11 = 3.32 ..... the sq root of the mean squareds is 3.32 ... the mean of original numbers. That final answer for the mean of all of those numbers is very slightly different to the exact 3 that you might expect, but that difference has extremely important implications in data analysis regarding sampling. Simply altering each -ve to become a +ve instead of using √ [(∑ v²)/n] would miss this analytical potential (see footnote). Here is what we did: We ended up taking the square root (often just called the root) of the mean which was found by using the squared values. See again how you did that just above here in those three steps as a reminder now. So .... You took the Root of the Mean Squared values .... ie: You found the RMS    ie:    rms = √ [(∑ v²)/n] You squared all the values, then found the mean of that, then unsquared the result. Finding the rms of a set of digits in that way is a well known method of finding a "mean" average answer, which is useful because it overcomes the -ve values which were offseting the +ve values ... which otherwise may give us a mean average answer of zero, which we can't use. Now think of a wave such as the Mains a.c. 50Hz. To find the average (ie the mean) voltage, the rms is used just as above here so that the -ve values do not cancel out the +ve values along the sine wave curve. The peak values of approx. +/- 325v occur, and are shown on the EC scope, but on average the voltage is the rms of approx 230v. (325 / √2 = 230v  where that √2 is an easy factor result for a sine wave to replace the equivalent of all of the maths squaring etc which we did above.) If instead, we have a square wave (such as with PWM) then the handy √2 factor which replaced all the maths squaring etc. does not apply as it did for the sine wave. However, to obtain RMS for a PWM we find that: Vrms = Vpeak x √D        where D is the Duty Cycle eg:  if d.c. Vpeak is 15v    and the duty cycle (D) is 0.5 then Vrms = 15 x √0.5       ie:  Vrms = 15 x 0.707107 so Vrms = 10.6066v compare that Vrms of Vpeak x √D ≈ 10.6v against the Vavg which is a simple Vpeak x D = 7.5v We also know that Pavg = V²rms/R    (as in P=V²/R) where Pavg is the average Power for a PWM so .... if say R = 10k Ohm Then Pavg = 10.6066²/10000 ..... (cp 7.5²/10000 if we had used Vavg instead of Vrms as our average). so  Pavg = 112.5/10000  Watt  ie: Pavg = 0.01125 W ie:  Pavg = 11.25mW Q: Can we be sure that this Pavg is correct? A: Check .... Pavg = (V²peak/R) x Duty Cycle .... this is an alternative valid formula. 15²/10000 = 0.0225W for full 100% duty cycle. Then since our duty cycle is 0.5 .... we have 0.0225 x 0.5 = 0.01125W ie: 11.25mW as found above. This confirmation also consolidates the validity of the Vrms. You now understand how to obtain RMS as the "mean" average and can use known factors or formulae to obtain required values such as Vrms,  and Pavg by using that Vrms. Irms current can also be used when calculating Pavg for PWM: eg:  Pavg = Irms  x  Vrms   or Pavg = I²rms x R The Irms is found in a similar way to the Vrms: Vrms = Vpeak x √D Irms = Ipeak x √D Pavg = V²rms/R is the recommended formula to use whenever possible for average Power. rms = √ [(∑ v²)/n] is the general formula to find the rms mean (average) of any set of digits. Avoid using the current if possible since it just makes things a little more confusing, but the answers work out just the same if you do need to use the current. The Vavg could be used instead of Vrms, but it would need pointless re-arrangement of formula and would not conform to the industry standard of P = V²/R Notice that Pavg is used throughout and is found by using Vrms ... (There is no sensible usage of the term "Prms"). This article does not cover a.c. caps, inductors or frequency/carrier/signal considerations. It is a basic introduction to rms. You are now able to use and read things like ∑ and (∑ v)/n  wherever you like within or outside EC. Maths symbols like that to use in EC can be copied and pasted from here: http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5283024345759744 Footnote: ** You may be wondering how the Vrms works to provide the correct Pavg outcome, and how the formula of   Vrms = Vpeak x √D in PWM  relates to the earlier description of summing numbers etc. To answer that we would have to talk in the language of integral calculus, where the discrete digits symbol ∑ (often used in statistical analysis) is replaced by the continuum symbol ∫ .... so there are times when we just need to accept the derived formulae and use them. If any reader here would like to pursue that line however, then I would be happy to encourage that, because it gives far greater insight in to the working principles. eg: how does √2 replace all the mentioned calculations for a sine wave rms etc. For now just remember that for a sine wave: Vrms = Vpeak / √2 Pavg = V²rms /R just as it is for PWM as per P=V²/R
published 6 years ago
BillyT
6 years ago
I wish I had a tablet to enjoy these lessons more fully.
2ctiby
6 years ago
It must be difficult on a phone screen, but the final summary formulae are quite readily available there.
592azy2circuitdude
6 years ago
Instead of squaring and taking the square root to remove the negative, why not use absolute value?
2ctiby
6 years ago
By using the rms we are creating absolute values. But the squaring etc goes further than just that... In the world of science and mathematics, squares play important rôles, eg the well known πr² for circle area and the shape of waves etc.(including square waves for PWM!). The list is endless for squares (and thus square roots). The rms method has tremendous usage in almost every walk of life inc. statistical analysis. Simply obtaining the absolute values on their own does not offer such broad usage. The simple examples used above are just an introduction to the structure. The values which are squared would normally have more significance than those used here ... eg in statistical analysis the squared values would often be the deviations from the mean in order to obtain a standard deviation for a normally distributed sample.
zorgrian
6 years ago
Please provide a guide to all lectures
zorgrian
6 years ago
Suggestion: instead of "By using the rms we are creating...", please use the grammatically more accepted structure: " Use of RMS, creates absolute values" .... In reality, of course both versions are incorrect as 'the rms' is not an absolute value
2ctiby
6 years ago
RMS is an absolute value ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_value
zorgrian
6 years ago
Its perfectly reasonable to refer to a negative going RMS value. I do understand the concept.
zorgrian
6 years ago
RMS is also necessarily an approximation, a statistical probability with demonstrable error
2ctiby
6 years ago
Yes, that latter statement is true...and my article is a basic introduction as described : how to set about finding the rms of data ... which could lead towards further analytical methods based from that. My example showed how to obtain the Vrms and Pavg for a PWM. I made a brief mention about standard deviation in statistical analysis, but this article was not aimed at developing that. You said that 'rms is not an absolute value' ... that is incorrect ... the square root of the mean squares is positive ... ie: the rms itself is a positive value, not negative ... regardless of any negative values that it refers to. ...( as with + 230v mains rms regardless of the implicit -ve values).
zorgrian
6 years ago
My apologies, you are indeed correct. However, I would like to repeat that it is no wrong to refer to negative going RMS values. In reality the negative or positive part of the argument is moot as really we are just talking about the value being in one quadrant or to put it simply how far away from zero it is.
zorgrian
6 years ago
Anyway, I like your illustrations
2ctiby
6 years ago
Thanks
kiani
5 years ago
This you will like. http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5282567524450304
kiani
5 years ago
[BLOCKED]
kiani
5 years ago
[BLOCKED]

EveryCircuit is an easy to use, highly interactive circuit simulator and schematic capture tool. Real-time circuit simulation, interactivity, and dynamic visualization make it a must have application for professionals and academia. EveryCircuit user community has collaboratively created the largest searchable library of circuit designs. EveryCircuit app runs online in popular browsers and on mobile phones and tablets, enabling you to capture design ideas and learn electronics on the go.

Copyright © 2025 by MuseMaze, Inc.     Terms of use     Privacy policy