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2ctiby
modified 7 years ago

The EC pulse source

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01:56:27
Look at the bottom circuit: When the EC Pulse Source turns off its voltage, it is not like turning off an ordinary SPST light switch. Instead, it is switched internally to zero. (if 0v is in the min setting). There is a major difference between those two different actions: The action of switching from high volts to zero can be seen here in the top circuit with the relay. That is how the E. C. pulse source works. By this switching to zero, a circuit line is maintained. The line is not simply broken. Wheras an ordinary SPST switch would simply break off that line when open. By keeping the line down to zero from the R C network seen on the right, the capacitor is allowed to immediately discharge to earth (the zero battery here is only to serve as a reminder of the zero earth within the EC pulse source ... Remove the zero battery and just make the earth connection there if it helps clarity). Now open the switch on the lower circuit ... to simulate an ordinary SPST action instead of the above. See how the voltage there stays constant at whatever volts it was at when you opened the switch. That is due to the capacitor being charged up to that point, with no discharge happening. So ... Bear in mind that whenever you use the EC pulse source, there will be a return path line happening, and not a switch-like line break. With all the above in mind, we could then create a timed switch to replace the bottom SPST switch there ... and so obtain a Volts output of our choice at any required point during the cap charge process... and that pre-determined output could trigger whatever we wish (such as a Mosfet or further relay etc).
published 7 years ago
lenzrulz
7 years ago
Very nice, well done my friend.
hurz
7 years ago
Wow, what a surprise, a controlled voltage source does change its VOLTAGE BUT NOT ITS RESISTANCE. Nobody can explain this more complicated then Mr 2cent
2ctiby
7 years ago
@lenzrulz ... Thanks, I hope the information there is useful to some users.
2ctiby
7 years ago
@ Fraudz. The RC network here is called an integrator. The reason it is called that is because it is capable of performing mathematical integral calculus. If you would like to discuss that with its implications in this circuit then I am happy to do so. Shall we start from the derivative and work forward from there?
wyoelk
7 years ago
A switch generally indicates a manual operation, i.e. spst, whereas this function is not a manual or physical operation.
wyoelk
7 years ago
So integral calculus and derivatives cannot switch anything to zero. The function of setting the circuit to zero is done by...your turn.
hurz
7 years ago
Funny to see how hes playing with Lego like a little kid.
2ctiby
7 years ago
@wyoelk ... A manual switch can be replaced by an electronic switch, such as a Mosfet.
2ctiby
7 years ago
@wyoelk ... The first comment from hurz here appeared to be disparaging about my article description, so I offered to discuss this circuit at a calculus level. This circuit wave forms, in fact can not be well understood without calculus. Notice the half-period which I chose in relation to the tau... I chose that in order to show full charge and discharge on the scope. We can continue the wave alterations discussion from that starting point with this circuit for anyone who is interested. For instance, let's first consider altering the bottom resistor to say 100 Ohm ... Look then at the wave shown and explain why it is that shape ... now different from the present default shape..you will need to remove all highlights apart from the one at the bottom between the resistor and the cap in order to see the revised wave shape.
lenzrulz
7 years ago
"Fraudz"...lol
Robert_Kidd
7 years ago
Ditto. Nice one!
wyoelk
7 years ago
You are really comparing a manual switch to relay/mosfet settings.
wyoelk
7 years ago
As well as two separate voltage sources supplying the relay, thus comparing a pulse source to them.
wyoelk
7 years ago
Apple to oranges. Not calculus
2ctiby
7 years ago
@wyoelk ... Let me clarify a few things here. Some users may have thought that the EC pulse source acts like an on/off switch. My article here was simply to demonstrate that this is not the case. An on/off switch is a break in the wire. The EC pulse source does not give a break. Instead, it retains a zero earth return path (default setting). The talk about waves and calculus has nothing to do with that issue.- It was an offer to hurz for a discussion about the R C network shown there. Having said that, the calculus of pulses would be part of such a discussion. I hope that clarifies things for you.
wyoelk
7 years ago
I don't understand why you ttalked about the relays and spst stuff then. Little in your description or circuits covers just the pulse. I use circuits and descriptions to teach others. This came up and completely confused folks. You simply buried the pulse description with two non comparing circuits with non similar components. Forget Hurz, simply explain that the pulse is not a manual process but electronic. Then it is not confusing. Not just you, but too many users try to do the same thing, explain a process incoherently.
wyoelk
7 years ago
And as I said, electronic components are dependent upon their settings. In your top circuit the pulse source doesn't even need to be set at zero to achieve the exact same result.
2ctiby
7 years ago
@wyoelk ... It is not a case of 'manual vs electronic' ... it is a case of 'line-wire-break vs same-wire-acting-as-an-earth-return' ... a Mosfet is electronic, but it does not suddenly act as an earth return when switched, whereas the pulse source does act as an earth return when pulsed down.
wyoelk
7 years ago
That is not what your circuits show! Or your description.
2ctiby
7 years ago
The standard pulse source circuit at the bottom shows an identical oscilloscope activity to the relay setup. Just remove the zero battery and connect the earth there if it helps. I can't make it any clearer than that.
wyoelk
7 years ago
The relay is still allowing the cap to discharge, not the pulse source
2ctiby
7 years ago
@wyoelk ... look at the default blue scope trace which is that of the bottom circuit Volts across the cap there ... it is discharging just like the similar green discharge trace seen for the relay setup. Ignore the relay pulse source entirely ... that is there just to make the relay contacts move for this demo ... it does not form part of the article in itself. The relay likewise is only there to enable the contacts activity which is what we are interested in here, not the relay itself.
2ctiby
7 years ago
@wyoelk ... When the seen square wave drops suddenly, half way along the grey scope bar (then allowing a return earth line as described), those two descending discharge curve traces can be seen on the scope from a time of 5us to 10us, being half of that scope grey bar length.
hurz
7 years ago
@wyoelk, what Mr. 2cent mean with "earth return" is just valid for sources in total, cuz they have a zero ohm resistance, doesn't matter if they are 5V or 0V. This funny "earth return" we better forget and makes the things complex mess from 2cent brain.
wyoelk
7 years ago
Completely understand what you are saying. But your post is trying to describe the pulse source activity. Your top circuit does not have such a source. So nothing posted here compares any similar sources, just the RC stuff. If you remove the relay and the pulse operating it there is nothing left to compare. I've been trying to show you this was not a post that taught or explained anything, just apples and oranges. My class thinks you did nothing but confuse what EC does. An open spst switch is indeed different than a zero voltage supply which is exponentially different than zero earth or ground or neutral which allow the cap to discharge in a different method for each.
wyoelk
7 years ago
Basically there is no return path line of any circuit unless both ends of the circuit are connected via ground or negative depending on ac or dc source. Without that connection it is merely a bunch of components connected.
lenzrulz
7 years ago
Yep, and that's all you'll get from "hurzy", denigrating remarks, and then he wonders why no one believes him or takes him seriously, how can anyone treat EC's most notorious troll respectfully?
2ctiby
7 years ago
@wyoelk ... The top left circuit pulses to the resistor are from the top left 1v battery source. It is those which we are discussing here regarding the line wire being used as either A) a light switch type on/off snip  vs  B) that same wire being re-used as a continuous connection between the left terminal of the resistor to earth. We are not interested here with the finger-switch/relay/electronic   method used for the 'jab' to trigger those 1v battery pulses. The EC pulse source acts like B, not like A ... The relay setup here depicts that B type, as seen by the scope similarity to the EC basic setup as per bottom circuit.
2ctiby
7 years ago
Very rapid pulses of that type B will produce a triangular integration output shape of the square (rectangular) input pulse, whilst longer-time pulses such as on the scope above, will produce the seen charge-discharge wave shapes, and then towards square shape if longer still. If we were to create rapid pulses of my mentioned type A however, then you would get a step up output ending at the height of the input 1v... and remaining there ... unlike the B which drops as with discharge. ... so the first step here is to appreciate those two types of possible pulse inputs to this RC network before progressing to examine their output shapes.
2ctiby
7 years ago
It may seem obvious that any component called a 'pulse source' will inevitably be that mentioned type B. But this article is to serve as a reminder that we may inadvertently create the mentioned type A pulses from our own relay setup etc without supplying an earth for the discharge of a RC network .... and then wonder why the output voltage of the cap is perhaps not as expected... Conversely, we may wish to create controlled step-ups without discharge, in which case we could ensure that no earth discharge is placed in our designed pulse supply.
wyoelk
7 years ago
But none of that is what you posted or explained in the original post. You just keep digging further away from what may have been intended. Most of what you post is quite verifiable, but this...is not. I am leaving this with that statement.
2ctiby
7 years ago
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