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modified 10 years ago

Perpetuum Mobile

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03:42:22

Okay lately I've been having a few ideas on making a REAL free energy generator. Since I'm not a good mathematician at all but i do understand the laws of thermodynamics I'm gonna make a few fair assumptions here and there about it. Many other people who completely understood the physics behind it tried and failed, but I'm obliged to give it a shot. One of Nikola Tesla's dreams was to build such a device.
Here's how I planned it:  just tell me your opinion. 

The resonance frequency of water is ≈42Khz. What if we use it to electrolyse the water. If that's not enough let's add some mechanical vibrations to the vessel in which the water will be stored, again at its resonance frequency. Let's add a few psi of pressure too. Wouldn't the electrolysis become so violent that the water will begin separating quickly enough to maintain a small engine (hydrogen fueled)  which can then be used to maintain the electrolysis itself making it effectively a self sustainable process. Further independence can be added from the fact that the byproduct of burning hydrogen is again water which can be circled back to the vessel in which the water is stored. That's the basic principle. What do you think? 

published 10 years ago

10 years ago

You know what? hurz always wants a video but refuses to watch these videos WTF.

10 years ago

WTF I'm with you on the last thing. I was thinking something else. What if it's in resonance but instead of drawing ever increasing amounts of energy, we just keep pouring small amounts of energy at the precise point it needs it. More like an oscillator with the water being the resonating circuit.

10 years ago

Exactly, it needs to be a pulse train, if you watch the video you will see john inserting a fluorescent lamp in the field and you can see it pulsing. But the important thing is how do you focus the energy?

10 years ago

I think that you can use a high power maser, kind like a laser but that emits microwaves at an certain frequency.

10 years ago

Ferlop, yes fluorescent tubes tend to become energised and light up close to an RF source. Actually it doesn't need to be an RF source. The long power lines where the voltages are up to 30kV some energy leakage makes the fluorescent tubes to light up again, although the frequency of mains is 50-60Hz.

10 years ago

I am just saying that with a pulse train and a focused energy beam we should be able to split water in to it elements, Just to get started I think an oscillator/amplifier capable producing mhz radiation and about 500 watts minimum output should be considered.

10 years ago

Ferlop, can you make the oscillator with the two output, one with half of the sinewave and the other with the other half of the wave?

10 years ago

500Watt and some MHz? @ferlop are you joking? How do you guys try to "focus" 13MHz? Is this a comedy show? Sentences like "should be able to split water", where is the calculation and on which physical effect should this work and why? "Should" is not very scientific!

10 years ago

hurz they're in their own pseudoscience world now, they're too far gone you can't reach them from reality ;)

10 years ago

guess theres no harm

10 years ago

I just want to see how it end.

10 years ago

I will shut up but keep in background and watch the show ;p

10 years ago

Hurz RF radiation can easily be channelled by many means. The simplest example which you tend to avoid is infrared lasers. They emitt frequencies up to 20000Ghz with a great stability and almoat no ,,harmonics (used loosely)''. Other examples are microwave ovens which use the enclosure to limit the space at which the waves propagata. For you to tell me that mankind doesn't direct RF radiation is just preposterous

10 years ago

I suggest something else. Just bear with me for a while. A powerful oscillator with a multidirectional radiation pattern at the resonant frequency of the water fully submerged in water (may it be supercooled to the point where the oscillator becomes superconducting or in normal state). Now as the oscillator becomes superconducting current capacity is almost not a factor. The tank circuit can build up to several kA without problem. To minimize the power consumption i suggest to use an oscillator which only adds small amounts of energy to the oscillations, just to keep them rising and not decaying. This way after some building up of energy the voltage will rise to a very high point whereas the consumption will remain considerably low. Since the whole thing is superconducting no loss should be expected so both the voltage and the current will be extremely large in the resonator tank. Now destabilizing water with several hundred amperes while drawing only a fraction of them as a supply sounds kind of efficient, doesn't it?

10 years ago

Ah being superconducting and all kind of solves the heat loss problems which occur with resistance. So the supercooled water will not be heated but dissociated at a very high pace

10 years ago

Ah and something else. Many things in the past have been considered pseudoscience. Now we know most of them to be correct. As you know the Earth is round and the cosmos doesn't spin around us :D . In doubt lies the truth ;)

10 years ago

Like I said you can tell us that what we are talking about won't work all day long if you do then why you even participate in this discussion, bring something useful not just negativity, Tesla was told hundreds of times that his ideas would not work, Edison even killed an elephant trying to prove it. Stan Ovshinsky was told that he could not make solar cells with cheap amorphous crystal, he proved the engineers and scientist wrong and now there is a physics effect named after his name. So please either contribute or leave us alone to our craziness.

10 years ago

thebugger, as far as supercooling Iam not sure, can you do that right on your workbench?

10 years ago

WTFcircuit, no I don't think I can make the oscillator to the exact requirements needed, that is why we got you. You are the oscillator man, and thebbuger can whip out some pretty amazing one to.

10 years ago

I would probably use a frequency generator controlled by an Arduino, it would have variable frequency output from 0 to 40 mhz and it would not take a lot of money to put together the pulse generator, there is a chip available to do it with: AD9850 DDS Signal Generator Module 0-40MHz IC.

10 years ago

"WTFCircuit 5 hours ago I can contribute saying what is impossible and what is not" I don't want to sound nasty to you but have you consider that no person knows all there is to be known. From now on no more inventions will be developed because there is nothing new to discover OK? Does that sound about right WTFcircuit?

10 years ago

Unfortunately they're right about the frequency thing. To break the bonds behind the water molecules we'd really gotta go very high. A few Ghz high. MHz won't do it. Maybe even Ghz won't do it. Somewhere in the Thz gap may the solution lie :/

10 years ago

thebugger, you already failed before you get started, lets do this!

10 years ago

What I was proposing is simple. "Recreate Kanzius experiments and then go from there". Lets not get into hyperphysics experimentation that would be imposible to recreate on our workbench. lets keep it as simple as possible and learn from that.

10 years ago

Ferlop, first I'm not the oscillatorman, almost all my oscillators are made in random. Also you're right, noone can know everything, but someone can know a lot, for example the idea of put the superconductor RF generator inside supercool water won't work. I also think that we should start with kanzius experiments.

10 years ago

How'd you know it won't work if you haven't tried it. I've laid out how to bypass some apparent problems that may occur. By the way i think the solution may lie in Brown's gas which is said to be self sustaining. Even though the efficiency is not greater than unity but it's pretty close. At the right proportions the burning is much more intense than burning hydrogen. This might be used as a eco-friendly fuel replacement for cars and such. The kanzius experiments are pretty close to Brown's experiments. Brown's way was to introduce high voltage low current into the water while Kanzius used RF radiation to do it.

10 years ago

Because I know that the hotter superconductor ever made has a temperature of -173°C and the coldest liquid water is -30°C with a pressure of 2000 atm, at lower temperature or any higher or lower pressure the water is so unstable that freeze instantly. Also you said " i think the solution may lie in Brown's gas which is said to be self sustaining". I should start saying that all flammable gases are self sustaining and the brown's gas (AKA oxyhydrogen) is quite quite hard to produce, I mean that it is easy, just put two wires in salty water and apply current, but have you ever tried it? I with 12V 10A was able to produce this gas, but the liters per minute rates are really low, so low that when I burned the gas coming out the generatorI hardly can see the flame generated by the hydrogen.

10 years ago

First of all as of 2015 the highest temperature superconductor is hydrogen sulfide at -70C and the rate keeps falling. Somewhere in the future superconducting temperatures may reach -30C. Another thing at 12V you can't be drawing 10A to dissociate pure water because it's almost non conductive. Maybe a NaCl solution but not pure water. From the experiments I've done water is non conductive at low voltages (tried it up to 30V with tap water, let alone distilled water). That's why brown used very high voltages (kV) in order to break the water insulation. Using salt solution makes low voltages work.

10 years ago

WTFcircuit we are on the same page now, that is what I proposed, to replicate Kanzius experiments and learn from the results, I was about to give up on this discussion, I thought I learned some things out of the whole thing: 1. There are self proclaimed engineers whom are quick to point out your mistaken thinking. but do not contribute anything to guide us with. Like when you are drowning, and some by stander ask you, is the water deep? Example: "500Watt and some MHz? @ferlop are you joking? How do you guys try to "focus" 13MHz? Is this a comedy show? Sentences like "should be able to split water", where is the calculation and on which physical effect should this work and why? "Should" is not very scientific!" Show us how to focus microwaves, don't just sit there high and mighty on your self made pedestal, criticizing after the fact. We independently have to do experimentation on our own, in this forum we are just exchanging ideas

10 years ago

I am going to acquire a second hand microwave oven to do some hacking, I'll let you know my findings, A microwave oven in the neighborhodd o "500 WATT" to 1000 "SHOULD WORK FOR STARTERS"

10 years ago

thebugger, you're right about the superconductor, I didn't know that hydrogen sulfide was a superconductor, but only at 150GPa of pressure. Also reading about that I found that some researcher teorized that metallic hydrogen can be a room temperature superconductor. Then I said that I used salty water to produce oxyhydrogen, sodium hydroxide to be exact, and not pure water. Ferlop I already suggested a way to focus microwaves, using a maser.

10 years ago

Yes a maser might be able to do it. Also a small confined space might be able to contain the waves. I think the solution is not to focus them but to spread them evenly over a volume of the water. As i suggested a powerful oscillator submerged in a supercooled liquid which will make it superconducting with current capacities of well over several kA while the consumption is neglectable because there are no losses. Now as the waves try to propagata ALL of their energy will be comsumed by the water making it a part of the highly energised resonant circuit.

10 years ago

I've just researched metallic hydrogen and it seems promising but the only problem is that the extremely low temperatures are substituted with extremely high pressure (up to 250000 atmospheres).

10 years ago

I know the problem of pressure, but I still think that the oscillator inside water at -70°C wouldn't work because the water will freeze. Also I'm not sure to understand why we should use a superconductor...

10 years ago

WTFcircuit, OK a maser , now what kind of power, how we get our hands on one of those beasts. maser beams can travel long distances so there is a problem there, as far as focusing, we need to keep it focused on a small spot , that way the molecules being split will be a small number, this way you don't need a lot of power, you just need to prove that it can be done first, then later you can scale things up.......................................................... As far as super cooling and metallic hydrogen and exotic stuff, we need to keep it simple and not try to take great leaps and bounds, instead lets just take small steps, and one at the time.

10 years ago

I think that we could reflect the microwaves coming out from the water back, so we get the new microwaves coming out from the maser and the old ones that has passed throw the water and then reflected back inside the water and the maser. I know from an experiment that the wave lenght of the microwaves at 1254MHz is around 12cm, I think that we should place the "mirror" so the waves reflected will get the same fase shift of the waves coming out the maser creating a sort of microwave resonator.

10 years ago

I think we're focusing on the wrong thing. Concentrating energy into a single point will release the enormous energy concentration as heat. We don't need the water vapours we need the water split. WTF i was thinking something. With current technological advances we can't close the gap between supercooled water ( up to -30) and superconductors (lowest being -70). So the water chamber will have a subchamber containing the liquid nitrogen and the superconducting oscillator. I suggest it to be superconducting for two reasons. 1 the current in a superconducting circuit can be up to several kA without problem without any of it dissipating as heat loss. 2. The oscillator can be a sort of a clapp oscillator with the active device only adding very small amounts of energy to the lossless resonant circuit, so we can minimize current draw. So completely loosely speaking imagine the lossless tank circuit with several kA of current circulating in it while the overall consumption being just a few amps. With this problem solved, the water will absorb all RF radiation (which will be hell of a lot) dissociating very rapidly. Furthermore the water will become a part of the resonating circuit. The only problem for me to solve is how much power we'll need and at which exact frequency must the oscillator resonate with water.

10 years ago

Wave directioning is done by parabolic satellite dishes (for instance) i think that this could be used to further focus the beam to any scale. But i don't think this is the solution. I think the answer lies somewhere in the ,,fringe science'' where the all respected laws of physics tend to fail. That's why i think superconductivity and supercooling is necessary. Because things start to act weird under some circumstances.

10 years ago

Ok, now I understood why the superconductor.

10 years ago

OK, I am out, this is way over my head. just one question for WTFcircuit, if I wanted to make a maser how would I do this.

10 years ago

You'd need a reflective surface of some kind. Just imagine how a satellite dish works. You beam a signal towards the dish. It collects it from all different angles and points in in a single spot. More precision may be gained from smaller satellite dishes, and higher frequencies. Either that or depending on the frequency at which you need it you can use a yagi antenna to direct the beam. Other types include techniques used in microwave ovens for instance.

10 years ago

OK, that is a lot of theory, but practically can you build a maser right now at home in your shop? you guys talk about maser neutron stars and black holes like it is a simple thing, you cannot build all this supercoolig chambers and superconducting thingamajigs. Is all this just to crank me up? Or what is going on? I took you for the serius persons I thought you were, maybe hurz is right, and it is all comedy.

10 years ago

Yes you can build a directional unit at home, but not to the extend to do you any useful job. You can build a small rf source generator and beam it towards a fluorescent lamp to make it lit from diatance. Other than that these things don't have any more useful in the hands of a civilian. I guess you can salvage the microwave generator from your microwave oven and use a parabolic dish or a reflective funnel to chanell it into a beam. But be cautious. These things often have a very destructive effect on electronics. Will burn out a phone immediately for instance. No living tissue must come in the path of the beam or the risks are very high. From immediate heat burn, to severe RF radiation sickness, to even cancer in the long term. I suggest you try something smaller for a start. Make an RF transmitter with output power no more than a few watts and frequency of up to a few hundred Mhz (for simplicity no more and no less because you may encounter antenna matching problems) and channel it into an appropriate antenna (dipole for instance ). Place a fluorescent lamp close by and watch as the RF radiation ionizes the gasses in the lamp, lighting it up. I may design such an oscillator for you here in EC and give you a few tips on the antenna matching if you'd want to give it a shot.

10 years ago

And I was just suggesting, I know that a maser need 4K (-269°C) to operate, instead the magnetron of a microwave oven is an almost focused microwave generator. Also I don't really know If water will split up wigh this tecnique. Finally, hurz is angry with me for a joke, and now he think I'm still joking

10 years ago

I'm also not sure if it'll split.

10 years ago

I have a few ideas,and it involves focused sunlight and a 1.5 v cell (discharged not alkaline) and an electrolyte solution. I will report results today.

10 years ago

The truth is out there, and is not complicated.

10 years ago

What do you want to do ferlop?

10 years ago

OK, here is the basic idea, it requires energy to split water, the sun provides the energy, we talked about lasers, maser, microwaves, it is all electromagnetic radiation, so I am going to arrange a vessel, with an electrolyte in it, use sunlight through a focusing lens to strike certain rods in the center. can't tell you about all the components yet.

10 years ago

Cloudy day today though:(

10 years ago

Remember, laws of thermodynamics on Earth do not apply to outer space. Otherwise, all outer space would be cold.

10 years ago

They apply throughout the known Universe, yet there are spots where the laws twist to such extend that they do not longer describe the universe correctly. Superconductivity is one of the known flaws in the great design. So ia the phenomenon - singularity. To break the energy conservation laws you'd need to literally think outside the box. I suggest you dwell in the so called ,,fringe science'' where the rules are bent to the extreme. I really think the answer lies somewhere in superconductivity because that's the closeat thing to ideal we can replicate.

10 years ago

Ferlop where do you live?

10 years ago

Thebugger had a chance to read up on Bose Einstein? Watch some YouTube vids on it is easier ;)

10 years ago

USA

10 years ago

Why we don't start with kanzius experiments? Then we can improve them and try to make them more efficent...

10 years ago

That was my initial proposal.

10 years ago

Also mine second proposal.

10 years ago

The kanzius experiments seem close to what I'm thinking. RF waves electrolysis, but even he stated that that doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics. So the output is once again lower than the input. Maybe if we add some idealization to the whole thing? The superconducting oscillator i had in mind for instance. Loop currents reach several kA in a superconducting circuit. Maybe, juat maybe combined with a clapp oscillator it might just do the job

10 years ago

thebugger where do you live?

10 years ago

Sofia, Bulgaria. It's in Europe.

10 years ago

Ok, if I remember correctly in europe is difficult to get liquid nitrogen yourself, liquid helium and hydrogen are practically impossible to by and only a few university can buy it. In USA things are different, It's easier to get those. I read about a guy that was 14 years old when he built a Farnsworth-Hirsch fusor using deuterium like nuclear fuel...

10 years ago

I don't have a fridge to spare, but i guess liquid freon might make a good substitute for the helium. Either way I'm not equipped to make such experiments :/

10 years ago

Why is it that you can not get helium, hydrogen,or nitrogen in Europe?.................. Donn't they have industry, don't they have air distillation plants?................................... Or is it all about control of the masses, we can't have little people running around experimenting finding solutions, without the governments approval, enriching themselves without government control, can we?

10 years ago

Thebugger, you seem highly technically capable, I don't know how old you are, but don't you want access to equipment and materials for pursuing your dreams, or are you tied for personal reasons to stay in a place where they limit or control what you can do?

10 years ago

I don't think so, because freon at 5atm and room temperature is liquid, i mean you will need very high pressure and release it inside a vaquum chamber for reach the temperature of liquid nitrogen.

10 years ago

Ferlop, here in italy nitrogen and helium can be bought by universities that really need it and big companies that, again, really need it. I know that the Padova university, near where i live has access at this stuff because they made researches in superconductors and nuclear fusion, but I can't go here and ask a liter of liquid helium.

10 years ago

WTFcircuit, again why they control you so much. ................................................................................ There is no true freedom in this world, and The good US of A is no exception, specially now days, yeah you can have access to a lot of the stuff we are talking about, but they keep tabs on you. They make you sign for the so called dangerous substances.......................... ........... But it seems that the Eastern Block countries and I guess some of Europe are excessively restricted...................... ............................................................. A great number of discoveries inventions, innovations don't come from the universities, or from the government agencies, or from engineers they come from common people working in their garages or kitchens. ........................................................ My point is: When you restrict access to materials and restrict peoples activities you stifle creativity, and no body benefits from that.

10 years ago

Why so much dots?

10 years ago

I want to separate text, but the editor squeezes it together. so I use the dots for separation. But you answer my questions with a question, you are not afraid of speaking out , are you?

10 years ago

No question mark no question, but i think that if people like me can get liquid nitrogen, helium and hydrogen, well, lets say that wouldn't be good. Are you a conspiracy theorist?

10 years ago

I don't believe I am, but if you say that getting your hand on the materials is no good for you or anyone else then that is OK. On the other hand if you wish to obtain them but can't because of gvt controls, that is not a conspiracy, that is a fact. If you are happy with the way things are, that is OK to. But then we get the gvt. we deserve. I bet you thebugger would like to be able to get more materials for his experiments!

10 years ago

And if he can, please send me a few of them

10 years ago

You seem afraid to speak against the rulers, WTF?

10 years ago

Experimentation brings a tingley sensation in my guts. I love experimenting with stuff and all, but here we're talking about a massive project which cannot be handled at home. You'd need access to highly flammable materials (like the liquid hydrogen) and you'll need to have access to a high pressure vessels in which you'll need to contain the hydrogen. I see several problems arising, like how to contain the cold from the liquid hydrogen from spreading to the water which we want to split, and also how to isolate the RF radiation in the given volume. Not to speak about the oscillator we'll need to develop before proceeding. I'm thinking clapp oscillator with a twist.

10 years ago

Actually scratch that. Liquid hydrogen would be dangerous since that's the exact think we'll be splitting :D. Maybe liquid helium. Anyway it's hard to come by these materials unrestricted, let alone the superconducting material.

10 years ago

thebugger you are back, did you fall from the face of the earth?

10 years ago

Fuck the sistem that's my thought. Yes this is a really big progect. To contein the cold from the helium, there is a material that can do the job: aerogel. Unfortunately water destroy it and it is a lot expensive...

10 years ago

Yeah and another problem that arises is how to contain the hydrogen produces by the system. Hydrogen is not very well tempered when it comes down to containing it. This is a very massive project :/

10 years ago

Yeah and another problem that arises is how to contain the hydrogen produced by the system. Hydrogen is not very well tempered when it comes down to containing it. This is a very massive project needing specialists in different field. Engineers, mechanics, physicians, and many other people with certain qualifications, and teamwork is what thia needs :)

10 years ago

I think you're right, we need a bigger team.

10 years ago

BTW I've been thinking. I don't think it'll be possible with current technology to do it. The superconducting oscillator must be submerged in a superheated water instead, since that's when the bonds between the water molecules start breaking. The inherent instability of water at these temperatures might make it unstable enough for the superconducting oscillator to do its job. The problems that arise are that there are no known inductors that work above 0C let alone 300C, so we'd have to isolate the two extremes of cold and hot and maintain quite a good balance. With several kA in the resonator tank and only few drawn, it might be able to make the process violent enough to produce energy. Since the byproduct of burning hydrogen is water, we could make it last longer by returning the byproduct at the start. Idk what do you think?

10 years ago

How do you think to mantain superheated liquid water? How do you thing to heat water to this temperature?

10 years ago

Because I though that we can use the microwaves from the superoscillator to heat the water, but I'm not sure it is enough...

10 years ago

Well as water can be supercooled it can be superheated. But the main difference is that when supercooled the bonds between the molecules strenghten, it becomes more stable, difficult to disrupt. On the other hand as water gets superheated the bonds of the molecules become much more unstable and prone to breaking. Since i still believe the solution lies somewhere outside of normal physics i still think that superconducting oscillator is the way to go, but the apparent problems might be difficult to overcome. We'd need to balance at least 3 conditions in the 2 separate chambers. The superconductor which will be in the center will have to be supercooled, while the outer chamber must be heated to 300-400degrees with sufficient pressure to keep the water liquid and superheated. As the oscillator gains strength, the already weakened bonds will start breaking violently enough to, hopefully, supply the needed energy to reverse the Vin>Vout condition. Since the oscillator will be lossless, only small amounts of current will be needed to maintain it, while the loop will have saveral kA of current running through them. Synchronising the oscillator with the water resonance frequency, will make the water a part of the tank circuit. By doing so i suspect that the water will no longer act as an absorbant for the RF energy, but more like it'll become a source of such. P.s.

10 years ago

P.S. So much ideas, so little field to experiment :/

10 years ago

Water thermolysis starts around 2000°C and at this temperature hydrogen is difficult to burn because the water generated by burning hydrogen will split again absorbing more energy that the combustion can generate.

10 years ago

I am done!

10 years ago

What?

10 years ago

Misunderstood

10 years ago

Actually i was thinking the two processes (thermolysis as you called it and RF dissociation) to be working in conjunction with each other. So that the thermolysis will help the electrolysis to take place at an easier rate. You can't split water multiple times. Once split to H and O you can't continue to split it further. I was thinking how we can somewhat increase the hydrogen burning efficiency. If we compress the hydrogen with the oxygen it'll burn more efficiently.

10 years ago

So, we have a superconductor oscillator inside a vessel of superheated water... Can we burn the hydrogen under the vessel so the burning hydrogen contribute to mantain superheated the water (the flame generated by burning oxyhydrogen is around 2000°C)?

10 years ago

The bugger you are talking about recombining oxygen and hydrogen pressurized? Don't you know that those two elements spontaneously and rapidly recombine to form water, and that is going to be big bang all over again, they might have trouble finding something to prove you were there once the vapor clears.

10 years ago

Yes much like a diesel engine operates, we'll recombine H and O in the engine itself (it works by compressing the fuel to the point of ignition). The byproduct will be water which will be purified and returned to the original vessel thereby minimising water loss. The engine will contain the combustion and convert it into a mechanical energy. The mechanical energy will be converted back to electrical energy which will power the oscillator. WTFCircuit, yes if the hydrogen production is sufficient we can use it to heat the water and maintain the engine. The problem comes with the superconducting oscillator. How to get it superconducting when the ambient temperature will be 300C. It must be separated in a veseel of liquid nitrogen within the superheated vessel. This is the obvious and quite obstructing problem we must overcome.

10 years ago

That's the big deal: how to mantain a temperature difference of around 2000°C

10 years ago

Exactly!

10 years ago

I found some interesting examples of such a machine. Turns out it's indees mechanical and it's very close to mind if you think about it. Chas Campbell ia the creator. The machine works by using a 800W motor with let's say 800rpm that drives a few large wheels which in turn drive a 3.5kW generator. The large wheels serv to increase the RPM's from 800 to around 3200. Here's a schematic http://overunity.com/12464/using-chas-cambel-flywheel-system-for-15-horsepower/dlattach/attach/112139/image//

10 years ago

Yes, I think Mythbusters made an episode about that... It didn't work

9 years ago

Its amazing. If you change inductor from 240uh to 1mh it will stay running with no error.cannot find solution.

8 years ago

Brilliant

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