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2ctiby
modified 6 years ago

Nmos datasheet setup part 2 ... Finding Beta

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01:03:55
See part 1 here: http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594722429403136 Here is the same Nmos that we were looking at in my previous presentation: IRF7201n from International Rectifier datasheet. Datasheet test details: Rds(on) = 0.03 Ohm Vgs = 10 volts VTO = 1 volt Id = 7.3 amp In EC here on the left we can see that in this setup: Vds = 0.359 volts Id = 1.2 amp So ... Rds(on) = Vds/Id        as per V = IR Then ... Rds(on) = 0.359/1.2 so Rds(on) = 0.03 Ohm     just like the datasheet We can create it to be that Rds(on) by adjusting the Beta, as we saw in my previous presentation, until the Id and Vds seen, give us the value which we are after for Rds(on) ... try it in the circuit on the right. Now here is an important new formula for you: Rds(on) = 1/[Vov × Beta] We can manipulate that to read as:  Beta = 1/[Vov × Rds(on)] From the given datasheet details: We know that Vov = 9       (ie 10-1) We know that Rds(on) = 0.03 So ... Beta = 1/[9 × 0.03] Beta =1/0.27 Beta = 3.7 A/V²  expect some rounding errors in EC Let's check that using Beta = KP(W/L) each part as seen in these Nmos settings. Beta = 0.037 × (100/1) Beta = 3.7 A/V²    just the same as our new formula. We now have this very handy way of calculating Beta, simply by using this formula. All we need is the Vov and the Rds(on) which are given on the datasheet. We can then put our calculated Beta value in to our EC settings just as we did in my previous presentation. Here is that formula again: Beta = 1/[Vov × Rds(on)] Now go back to the four setups on my previous presentation and see if you can find Beta for each mosfet if you were to alter each VTO as being 1, 2, 3, 4 See which one gives you the lowest result for Rds(on) ? Your answer will be the one with the highest Vov And that means the one with the lowest VTO If you were selling your mosfets as a manufacturer, you would want to boast about it having as low a Rds(on) as possible ... The lowest Rds(on) which you could rightly offer is the one which you tested at the lowest VTO If you were to test your factory mosfets which had a higher VTO, then your Rds(on) value would be higher and you would lose sales where people were buying from your competitor with his stated lower Rds(on) ... so in my opinion, every manufacturer is likely to test the mosfets with as low a VTO as possible to get the lowest Rds(on) result for their datasheet 'Flagship' presentation ... There is no law which states that they must test at a specific VTO, as long as it is within the true stated range. A specific test VTO [ie: Vgs(th) ] is not usually stated on a datasheet, so opinion reigns for this issue without validation.... but the Rds(on) for each different VTO value will be likewise different. Note: This particular mosfet has just one unambiguous VTO stated on the datasheet of 1v One extra thing to note with this formula: It only applies if the mosfet is in its Ohmic state. Very low Vds gives a more accurate result. Q: Is the datasheet mosfet in its Ohmic state? A: I'll leave you to think about that for now. Ask if you are stuck. Finally: Be careful with units etc ... eg: 0.037 A/V² which I used above, may be seen in the EC settings as 37mA/V² for the KP When you are familiar with setting up a mosfet from a datasheet, you may want to take a few meter measurements of a real bought mosfet on a board simple setup to obtain the same necessary values eg Vgs, VTO,  Vds and Id to calculate your actual bought mosfet Rds(on), then calculate Beta with that new formula above ready to use in EC for circuit testing etc.
published 6 years ago
Tedski
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
kiani
6 years ago
Lenzulz =tedyski=yeron=idiotski
kiani
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
kiani
6 years ago
@2ctiby you hide like a coward,, you reply on unrelsted posts....! I have invited you for a discussion,, you are hiding....and screem on other people posts......you little bugger.
lenzrulz
6 years ago
@2ctiby is smart, he has destroyed your arguments on countless occasions and exposed your technical ignorance. He discovered flaws with your fiddled “MOSFET library” and invited you for a discussion but you can’t think for yourself so you attacked him personally. Why should an intelligent man lower himself to discuss a loaded topic with someone as clueless as you?
lenzrulz
6 years ago
Reflect on that and have a nice day my friend...😎
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
kiani
6 years ago
2ctiby only supporter is @lenzrulz slimy charlatan and fraudster who knows nothing about electronics,,, and they live in each other guts,, both the same crap, charlatans..
lenzrulz
6 years ago
Fix your erroneous “MOSFET library”
2ctiby
6 years ago
Here is the link to the kiani schematic, where kiani can not calculate his own drain current to match the shown EC 0.242 amp, and I also doubt that zorgrian can do it...zorgrian only storms in without proper mosfet technical knowledge, just like kiani ... looking for trouble only. ... Proof of the pudding here (visible EC shown result of calculations):      http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5031959353622528 no point in arguing with these clowns continually ... kiani and zorgrian just can't do that level of calculation... whilst wanting others to think that they could do it.... stand by for abusive diversions.
lenzrulz
6 years ago
👍
kiani
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
lenzrulz
6 years ago
Bla, bla, bla dummy sucker, no wonder why no one takes you seriously...😎
kiani
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
As @hurz has pointed out, EC does not really simulate the MOSFET well with the exception of a bad switch. The behaviour of MOSFETs is characterized by similarity with thermionic valves or tubes, therefore the observed obsessed waffle on current is largely a massive waste of time.
zorgrian
6 years ago
Additionally, 2shithead is condescending, deceitful and pompous
2ctiby
6 years ago
Wondered how long it would be before the ever lurking grrrrrgrian would show his ugly face. He knows absolutely nothing about mosfets, yet here he is acting like some kind of delusional sage in charge of EC ... he is worse than kiani and hurz put together really, and twice as stupid.
Tedski
6 years ago
The kiddiwinks gang is getting bigger, this one sounds like a clone of The Super Sewer Mouth!!
lenzrulz
6 years ago
Lol...😂
zorgrian
6 years ago
2shittingHoles, I admit not to know; yet use MOSFETs I do! Sage I am not, but not am I a fuckwit pretentious delusional semi delinquent half adequate idiot
zorgrian
6 years ago
2CB, why not try one of your MOSFET formula equivalents for EC yourself; check your simulation against a real MOSFET just using DC and potentiometers to adjust the voltages? Try a nice BS170; since these have more have homogeneous real life characteristics than say IRF devices, one should expect more congruence between the DUT and the datasheet. In this way, we may learn how well your fancy crimson hooter deals with reality!
zorgrian
6 years ago
Sorry 2CB, the above has typos, but I am sure a man of your potential educative prowess will not be phased by this; the meaning should infuse itself despite the obvious resistance.
zorgrian
6 years ago
Ask if you are stuck!
2ctiby
6 years ago
EC can be a great place for practical board users to check their circuit currents etc, or for those who just want to play around, or for those who wish to advance their theory etc. ... My presentation here can be taken as seen for any interested user. If you are not interested in it, then please just bypass it unless you wish to discuss a technical point in it. Storming in with abuse, or saying nebulous statements like 'it is all wrong' without being specific, is not a good thing.
2ctiby
6 years ago
This presentation is aimed at helping interested mosfet users to discover aspects of mosfets which may be new to them ... such as Beta, Vov, Rds(on) and why two different drain currents need to be considered in any one mosfet... that latter point is one which I have not yet described. It is both fascinating and very important in understanding mosfets ... but seeing how this thread has turned in to a long slanging match, I am reticent to produce further detail, and may just stick to helping individual enquiries.
2ctiby
6 years ago
One of those currents is the 'ideal' calculated theory. The second current is the seen measured value. Learning how the two are mathematically related and how to account for their difference or predict the measured value, is basically what I am talking about here.
2ctiby
6 years ago
Empirical measurements may require a stack of tests where a mean can be obtained ... it should suffice for general purposes, because electronics using DMM etc is not an exact mathematical thing.... no need to delve in to standard deviation etc unless you particularly want to.
zorgrian
6 years ago
Empirical here means using an iron and actually doing electronic design
lenzrulz
6 years ago
When all reasoning skills fail, resort to personal insults, we’ve seen it before, such a shame!...😬
lenzrulz
6 years ago
Lol...😂
zorgrian
6 years ago
Empirical here means using an iron and actually doing electronic design
zorgrian
6 years ago
Empirical here means using an iron and actually doing electronic design
Tedski
6 years ago
Definitely a Super Sewer Mouth apprentice!!!
lenzrulz
6 years ago
👍
zorgrian
6 years ago
😴
zorgrian
6 years ago
Definitely a Super Sewer Mouth LENTIL CLONE 👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽👽
zorgrian
6 years ago
2CB Thy vile canker-blossom'd countenance curdles milk and sours beer!
zorgrian
6 years ago
2CB Thy vile canker-blossom'd countenance curdles milk and sours beer!
zorgrian
6 years ago
2CB Dein abscheuliches Gesicht mit Krebsblüten gerinnt Milch und saures Bier!
zorgrian
6 years ago
2CB ¡Tu vil semblante de flor de chancro cuaja la leche y agria la cerveza!
zorgrian
6 years ago
2CB El vostre vilgardós florec podria combatre la llet i la cervesa sours.
zorgrian
6 years ago
2CB Ton visage de fleur de chancre vile caille le lait et sours la bière!
zorgrian
6 years ago
Ask if you are stuck.
zorgrian
6 years ago
drain (channel length). The channel width. The threshold voltage. The thickness of the gate oxide layer. The dielectric constant of the gate insulator. The carrier (electron or hole) mobility.
zorgrian
6 years ago
EC does not model even the basic needs of the MOSFET properly
zorgrian
6 years ago
It is lacking in parameters
zorgrian
6 years ago
Spice simulation can do this. However it is unlikely that EC will ever be able to simulate a CMOS transistor properly. This is especially true for the linear or so called ohmic region of the CMOS transfer characteristic
zorgrian
6 years ago
Get it? EC does not do CMOS! Not properly at all. Not for amplification or linear applications
zorgrian
6 years ago
Indeed it barely makes a reasonable approx to a switch!🥶
zorgrian
6 years ago
Ask if you cannot get this through your head
zorgrian
6 years ago
Now go back to the four setups on his previous presentation and see if you can find Beta for each mosfet if you were to waste your time
lenzrulz
6 years ago
So much waffle! Do you know what they say about empty drums?
zorgrian
6 years ago
Alarm bells do not sound in the middle of a forest with nobody to hear them. The concept of alarm requires a conscious being in order for it to have meaning. Since there are now no conscious beings left in the forest, the alarm may ring or not and silence will reveal itself.
zorgrian
6 years ago
Empty vessel? Yes the empty vessel makes the loudest sound. Although, it is doubtful that the sound of empty cut and paste circuits will resonate with anything other than LOL 🥵
zorgrian
6 years ago
If you don't understand please ask
zorgrian
6 years ago
To use 2CB's waffle, "We can manipulate that to read as anything we like"
zorgrian
6 years ago
Schizophrenia is a serious mental disorder here on EC. EC Schizophrenia often results in combinations of delusions, and extremely disordered dysfunctional circuits that were cut and paste jobs from other dead heads. Additionally, EC schizophrenia totally impairs any reality that one may previously have assumed or have imagined to be present. It can be disabling not only for the schizophrenic EC multiple account holder, but may affect others who engage in any dialogue with the afflicted. People with schizophrenia require lifelong treatment and often benefit from a massive increase in a thorazine I/V drip.
lenzrulz
6 years ago
More waffle but nothing else, so sad...🤔
zorgrian
6 years ago
Remember, It's not a race, not a preparation; no achievement frees you from the ticking clock; there is no greatness in comparison nor competitive action. However, self delusional semi delinquent half baked professor status is unattractive and is a demonstration of lacking sanity
zorgrian
6 years ago
Remember, It's not a race, not a preparation; no achievement frees you from the ticking clock; there is no greatness in comparison nor competitive action. However, self delusional semi delinquent half baked professor status is unattractive and is a demonstration of lacking sanity
zorgrian
6 years ago
Remember, It's not a race, not a preparation; no achievement frees you from the ticking clock; there is no greatness in comparison nor competitive action. However, self delusional semi delinquent half baked professor status is unattractive and is a demonstration of lacking sanity
lenzrulz
6 years ago
@zorgrain, you can’t offend me (many have tried and all have failed) but I would suggest that you tone down your bad language rhetoric as young people also read these comments, thanking you in advance...👍
kiani
6 years ago
Beware of lenzrulz. He is the most notorious liar, spammer and hypocrite on EveryCircuit. He steals schematics and descriptions from others, re-publishing them without giving credits. lenzrulz projects himself as victim, while he's creating resentments by his very own actions, and has been doing so for years. Be wary when he presents himself as tech-savvy individual - his incompetence in the field of electronics is striking. But don't take my word for it, see for yourself. Should you engage into debate with him, keep a hardcopy or screenshots of what was said - he may manipulate his comments. He continuously reposts his crappy spam under the pretext of "cleansing of defamatory comments", but has been observed doing so with crap which didn't even contain a single comment at all. As self-declared master of debates (rather, master of hot air, moronic "Lol"s, and talking to himself through sock puppet proxies such as foul-mouthed Tedski, who spreads lies like his puppet master) he doesn't hesitate to fabricate fake "evidence" to support his lies. He is not interested in Electronics, but in provocation, and the reason for the toxic atmosphere on EC, even though he likes to blame others, naturally
lenzrulz
6 years ago
👍
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
Ask if you need help
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
Ask if you need help with the Thorazine levels
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
Keep up the levels
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5940776027291648
kiani
6 years ago
2ctiby just full of crap. He pulls up a rabbit Beta out of his underpants. What an idiot 2ctiby is.
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
kiani
6 years ago
This post is exact copy from internet with some maipulations. It is badly written, in such a way to keep "Viewrs" in suspense...2ctiby is a charkatan, he oretends he is a exoert,. Be aware and do not use his post as any kind of reference.
2ctiby
6 years ago
Absolutely my own work ... it would be interesting to see a link to an earlier internet presentation lol.
kiani
6 years ago
2Ctiby is just a vermin,, a nasty bacterium..... Check his team...Lenzrulz,,,,non-electronic Troll,,, teddy_ski,,, pathetic house vermin,, troll, non electronics,, new nian_zheo another duplicate of vermin lenzulz.... And 2ctiby is their chief,,, a pathetic loser...
2ctiby
6 years ago
Hurz and zorgrian have tried for years to control users on EC ... their use of the kiani puppet is yet another ploy to get users under their directives ... Users beware.
2ctiby
6 years ago
The kiani mosfet library data is full of errors and is misleading to anyone who thinks that it relates to a bought mosfet. Users are advised to avoid it and consider the endless stream of kiani abuse in my informing you about it.
2ctiby
6 years ago
Back in October last year, kiani placed abusive lies and insults on virtually every production that I have ever placed on EC  and he continues to update that abuse recently ... eg:  http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5245744790634496     ... http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5283024345759744  ...    http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594722429403136   ...   etc.
2ctiby
6 years ago
 @all users ... Hurz demands subservience in every, yes every aspect of electronics. If you show signs of knowing more than him in so much as one aspect, then the trio of hurz/zorgrian/kiani will set about insulting you etc in an effort to drive you out, or force you to actively show submissive stature... If you get on ok with hurz, then you have either been seen as obviously knowing less in every aspect, or you have compromised yourself and shown him that you are submissive to him... Be honest with yourself ... Have you yielded to his imposed superiority even though you know more about a particular aspect?  No one know best about everything ... but hurz believes that he does, and you will be forced to believe that too on EC.... or suffer the consequences.
2ctiby
6 years ago
I recently placed an article on EC to help users find their own mosfet settings ... Take a look ... but also take a look at the responses there and consider the deplorable effort to distract you by zorgrian and kiani, with absolutely no technical discussion about my presented detail. Their ploy is to get users reliant on their directives rather than on your own learning. http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594722429403136   ...
kiani
6 years ago
http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594477488340992
kiani
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
kiani
6 years ago
@2ctiby you ve been exposed baby. . Charlatan..go change your name, , 2Nian_zheoby...what a foc head and perverse jerk.
kiani
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
2ctiby
6 years ago
Back in October last year, kiani placed abusive lies and insults on virtually every production that I have ever placed on EC  and he continues to update that abuse recently ... eg:  http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5245744790634496     ... http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5283024345759744  ...    http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594722429403136   ...   etc.
zorgrian
6 years ago
It's honestly my opinion that the lentil/ NZLENTI account holder is a person paid by a competition app (a corporate entity). The purpose, is to render EC into unprecedented levels of total dysfunctional chaos. Naturally, we may continue to use the app privately. However, this detracts from the social side of the app, which now is at an all time low. Adding a better threaded comments system to the app is not complex. Indeed, this doesn't even need writing as there are suitable candidates in the public domain, from where such an improved comments system could be rapidly developed.
2ctiby
6 years ago
I recently placed an article on EC to help users find their own mosfet settings ... Take a look ... but also take a look at the responses there and consider the deplorable effort to distract you by zorgrian and kiani, with absolutely no technical discussion about my presented detail. Their ploy is to get users reliant on their directives rather than on your own learning. http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594722429403136   ...
kiani
6 years ago
2ctiby is a useless barking mad dog... Just yapping barking.. He thinks he had the monopoly on mosfets....and played fake proffessori... Since we started on mosfets.. He was exposed of lack of knowledge,, , he does not know much about electronics or mosfets.... Now he is just desperatly bitches, and spamms our posts..
2ctiby
6 years ago
Back in October last year, kiani placed abusive lies and insults on virtually every production that I have ever placed on EC  and he continues to update that abuse recently ... eg:  http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5245744790634496     ... http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5283024345759744  ...    http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594722429403136   ...   etc.
2ctiby
6 years ago
This is what happens if I put anything up here ... I recently placed an article on EC to help users find their own mosfet settings ... Take a look ... but also take a look at the responses there and consider the deplorable effort to distract you by zorgrian and kiani, with absolutely no technical discussion about my presented detail. Their ploy is to get users reliant on their directives rather than on your own learning. http://everycircuit.com/circuit/6594722429403136   ...
2ctiby
6 years ago
I do not intend to spend my life here bickering on EC with a know-all like hurz. ... Individuals must decide whether to be subservient to him or not ... Those who submit themselves to him will never be able to voice an opinion which contradicts his view. Then you must always abide by everything he says ... and that may well influence your life path outside EC, which in my opinion would be towards a hell hole, with his partner zorgrian and their puppet kiani.
kiani
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
hurz
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
kiani
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
zorgrian
6 years ago
[BLOCKED]
digital_electronics
5 years ago
@2ctiby, thank you for sharing, your work is always appreciated...👍

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